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 Post subject: Term "grog," how old?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:18 pm 
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I seem to recall a reference on a pre-Adm. Vernon mention of "grog" on either this forum or Pyracy Pub.

Now, i can't find it (try a search for "grog" on a pirate forum).

Anyone one KNOW is such a reference exists?

(EVEN if the term meant a rather different drink than the later cut-rum "grog")

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:40 pm 
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Location: Off the coast of Florida (inland, unfortunately)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grog

Wiki states that Daniel Defoe used the word in 1718 and goes on to state that the word is probably of east Indian or African in origin. Odd, though, that no other refrence that I could find cite the Defoe usage.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:00 pm 
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I've found the reference that Wiki drew from, and it appears that they are most likely claiming it was in Robinson Crusoe, although there was another book, less well known, also published at the right time. In any case, I ould consider it likely that "Old Grog" got his name from the drink, not from a "ratty old grogham coat".

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:14 pm 
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This is snipped from Wiki:

"It is very widely believed that the name "grog" came from the nickname of Admiral Edward "Old Grog" Vernon, but since the word appears in a book written by Daniel Defoe in 1718, well before Admiral Vernon's West Indian career began, and 22 years before his famous order to dilute the rum ration, this cannot be so. Significantly, it is in the 1718 book (The Family Instructor, Part II) a little former slave boy, Toby, from Barbados, who is the character using the word, stating that "the black mans" in the West Indies "make the sugar, make the grog, much great work, much weary work all day long." Since Defoe had trading interests which gave him connections at the great seaports of the day, it is likely that he had heard the word used by similar visitors to Britain from the West Indies. At any rate, the word seems to definitely have entered English from the West Indies - it may have an African origin. It is likely, therefore, that "Old Grog"'s nickname came from the drink, rather than from his cloak and that his family put about the story about the grogram cloak to cover up this minor shame. However, while the word "grog" referring to rum antedates Vernon's rations, the use of the word to refer to diluted rum may post-date him."

So, according to this, it is from "The Family Instructor, Part II." I do not have access to this work. Anyone that can confirm this? Also, are there any references to "grog" in any extant diaries that anyone here may have heard of? Methinks that the resources of this group may be superior to that of most dictionaries in this particular matter. Not denegrating anyone, just the term is obscure and in our realm of interest.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:31 pm 
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Captain Jim wrote:
So, according to this, it is from "The Family Instructor, Part II." I do not have access to this work. Anyone that can confirm this? Also, are there any references to "grog" in any extant diaries that anyone here may have heard of? Methinks that the resources of this group may be superior to that of most dictionaries in this particular matter. Not denegrating anyone, just the term is obscure and in our realm of interest.


THE reason I asked here.
Many here read, eat, and BREATHE the period in question.

Besides, I TRUST the answer here better than on the Pub. Most (all?) posters are interested in the REAL history. There, many don't seem to care.

I may ask, just to see the answers I get.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:18 pm 
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I remember hearing this one too... I'll have to check my sources.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:50 pm 
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A link to The Family Instructor... I can find no mention of grog, though I can find mention of Toby.
http://tinyurl.com/2xro95

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 Post subject: Re: Term "grog," how old?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 6:22 pm 
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As a linguistics student, in my studies I have come across this reference to "grog".
William L. Priest's Swear Like a Trooper in the preface states:
Shogun, based on James Clavell's book by the same name about events in sixteenth century Japan, was a lavis production. I throughly enjoyed the program until the scene in which the sailors demand their gorg. Everyone knows sailors drank a lot, but- there was no such thing as grog in the sixteenth century! A British sailor, until the late 1750's would have demanded his spirits or beer ration. Priest (2000, p. V)
And I thought my Linguistics study would be boring.


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 Post subject: Re: Term "grog," how old?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 2:19 pm 
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A search of google books found An Universal Etymological English Dictionary, written in 1737 (there are earlier versions but they are not available on google). No mention of Grog, although the dictionary seems pretty comprehensive. There is a mention of Grog'ram (apparently gross grain), a type of fabric.

http://books.google.com/books?id=VuYIAA ... og&f=false

There is also a mention of Punch, "a Composition made of Brandy, Lemons, Water, Sugar, et. cet. for common drinking."

http://books.google.com/books?id=VuYIAA ... ch&f=false

That to me is pretty convincing that Grog was not a term in common use in 1737. More evidence that we need to have punch at an event at some point, as if we needed it. Punch was a common sailors drink, much in evidence in Johnson's history and other period sources.

Wow, the more I search this dictionary, the more I find! I have often used the period term "Punk" for a prostitute, but it has a nuance and etymology I did not realize. From the dictionary, it derives from "[. . . a Leather Wallet, q.d. an old shriveled Whore, like a Piece of shriveled Leather] an ugly ill-favor'd Strumpet." Wow, I didn't realize how insulting I was being. Will have to use it more!

Interesting entries on sword, han'ger, etc. No mention of Cutlass or its many variants that I can find, but many nautical terms.
Amazing!

Other base woman terms - Giglet, Jade, Wench, Crack, Trull, Strumpet, Que'an (also barren cow), Drab, Slut, Overswicht, Mort, Doxy, Miswoman, Harlot (proud whore) Cuckquean, Cal'let, Bulk'er, Bona-Roba (Spanish), Baggage (soldiers camp-whore). Wow, that is a lot of whore names. Some new ones on me! Comprehensive dictionary for the important stuff!

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 Post subject: Re: Term "grog," how old?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 10:52 am 
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Good work detective. Giglet, haha.

scurvy, more punch please.


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 Post subject: Re: Term "grog," how old?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 2:50 pm 
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I'll have me a Giglet with a side of Bona Roba please, and punch for the table.

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