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 Post subject: Pirate ship question (circa 1721)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:47 pm 
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Hi,

Can anyone help me out with some info on ships and sailing times in 1721? For a writing project I'm working on, I'm trying to figure out the best choice of ships to give a main character, a pirate turned pirate hunter, and to make sure I get the details right. I had the idea that the ship he uses was a warship he'd captured and commandeered for his own uses a few years back (so it could be something from the late 1710s), and whatever model or nationality it needs to be, it needs to have a balance between firepower and speed, and provoke a sense of "Oh f***, we've gotta go up against THAT?"

So for 1721, what would be the best ship to give this guy, and what's a realistic number of tonnage, cannons it could hold, etc.? Most importantly, how fast could it sail from Kingston, Jamaica to Bristol, England? (Also, how fast between Kingston and Hispaniola?)

I know I'm asking for a lot, but if anyone could help me out with this, or direct me to someone who could, I'd very much appreciate it. Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship question (circa 1721)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:11 am 
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Location: The Republic of South Carolina
The most common ship type for a pirate was a sloop. They were also used as warships by the Royal Navy. The larger warships were few and far between, plus pirate made a concerted effort to avoid them most of the time. There are very, very few pirate vs. Royal Navy battles, contrary to the popular image. Generally, the pirates ran ASAP.
A couple battles I can think of from the 17-teens period the ones at the very end of Bart Roberts career and the sloop battle where Meynard lead 2 sloops to corner Blackbeard's one. Most other captures were quick give-ups by the pirates.

I'd recommend a look at the Chapman book, which is a tad later, but the best one close to the period by a long shot.
http://www.amazon.com/Architectura-Nava ... =8-1-spell
Blackjohn got me to look at it and it is now a "standard" in my library. For the price, there is NOTHING better. The tonnage, length, and much info is in there too, as are great blueprint-type illustrations.

Edit: to give an idea of how good it is, I'm going to get another copy and make a period "shell" binding for it. That way, I can have it in the open at events and reference it w/o concern for it "fitting in."

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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship question (circa 1721)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:56 pm 
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"The larger warships were few and far between, plus pirate made a concerted effort to avoid them most of the time. There are very, very few pirate vs. Royal Navy battles, contrary to the popular image."

Understood - but the fact that he successfully commandeered a larger warship, whichever kind he ends up using (British, Spanish, etc.), is kind of important to his characterization, not to mention some key sequences and plot points. If a sloop really is the only option, however, I'll go with it. I was just hoping I'd be able to give him something more imposing.

I do appreciate the information, though, and I'll look into the book you recommended. Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship question (circa 1721)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:11 am 
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Preliminary:
At the time, a "ship" was one that had 3 or more masts.
There were several types of other seacraft that were 1 and 2 masts and known by their rigging.
A sloop was a single (and sometimes 2-masted) seacraft with for-aft rigging as primary, plus a main squaresail and a top sail. They had a sleek hull and were relatively shallow draft. Their great speed advantage was by having a large amount of sail that could catch the wind at most angles combined with the clean hull designed for speed over cargo capacity.


Based on your plot, a larger ship would make sense. There were some, but not as many as sloops. Most "pirate" novels and films have the pirates on large 3-masters, while those weren't all that common. Such is a common mistake made in popular media.

The reason pirates tended to keep to sloops is that they were fast, maneuverable, quite seaworthy, and of a shallow enough draft to run up rivers and hide from larger ships unable to get up there to catch them. Even when a larger ship was available for an "size upgrade," the pirates would oft stay w/ the sloops. Having a large ship has advantages on terms of loot size, intimidation, and so forth, but have huge disadvantages in required crew size (more shares to split) and being able to hide and clean the hull (careen). Sloops could simply run up most any beach, while a ship has limited options. They were normally cleaned in a dock, but such wasn't an option for pirates. In historical cases, pirates simply jumped ship-to-ship (see Roberts) as the old one got slow, leaky, and rotten, sometimes to one less capable, but momentarily more seaworthy.
Blackbeard "downsized" after he (intentionally) ran his Queen Anne's Revenge aground, stranding most of his 300+ crewmen w/o their fair shares.
There is also the conversions that some pirate crews made after getting their hands on a ship, such as converting a ship to a brig or other 2-master rigging by cutting down a mast. In such conversions, superstructure could be simplified, non-structural internal walls removed, and gunports added. Such would be to make the ship: a) lighter and thus faster by removing structure b) making more open decks for loot and action platforms c) changed rigging to make it require less crew to work, faster, and/or change the way it worked in catching the wind.

If you can justify a ship in your plot and are able to work out the pros, go for it.
Most writers get over the very practical issue to cleaning the hull and by just ignoring it.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship question (circa 1721)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:38 pm 
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Thanks for the information. Based on this and other research I've done, I've decided to give him a light frigate, with some of the modifications that you (and others) have recommended. (I've also come up with a way that he swiped it from the British navy back when he was a pirate).

The biggest reason I wanted to know what kind of ship to give him was to get an accurate count of how long it would take whatever ship he had to sail from specific destinations (Kingston to Santo Domingo and later, Kingston to Bristol), as well as accurate size, cannon, and tonnage. I know I could leave those details out, but I guess I feel that would be cheating.

Thanks again!


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship question (circa 1721)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 26, 2010 8:59 pm 
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On the other hand, Bart Roberts "traded up" a couple of times, including taking a frigate.

But size would have only minimal effect on travel time, except with really small or really big ships. Limiting factor would be hull speed, and they would only rarely be cruising at that.

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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship question (circa 1721)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:09 am 
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Good to know.

One more question about larger ships and warships of this time - on a ship with a single gun-deck, would the entire deck be one vast room, or would it be divided up into multiple rooms, each with its own supply of cannon and shot?


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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship question (circa 1721)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:56 pm 
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If designed as a warship, one long deck. The shot and powder are in a central, protected magazine (both from external fire and shots and from crew letting out accidental ignition. That way, there is less of a change of a boom, as that would tend to be fatal to the crew (as Morgan proved).

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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship question (circa 1721)
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:51 pm 
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Location: Dayton, Ohio, United States of America
As far as toneage goes, here are some fleet estimates.


Year 1710:
Britain: 171,000
France: 158,000
Holland: 101:000
Spain: unknown
Denmark: 55,000
Sweden: 50,000
Russia (Baltic): 3,000
Russia (Black Sea): unknown
United States: Non Applicable


Year 1715:
Britain: 168,000
France: 102,000
Holland: 84,000
Spain: 9,000
Denmark: 51,000
Sweden: 37,000
Russia (Baltic): 27,000
Russia (Black Sea): unknown
United States: Non Applicable

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 Post subject: Re: Pirate ship question (circa 1721)
PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:17 pm 
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Location: Dayton, Ohio, United States of America
The above are fleet totals (not what you probably want).
I can give specific ship specs if you want them.

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